but on the other hand, we can't panic if an environment of that -- in an environment of that sort. we, you know, you said how transitions are unpredictable, and there are all kinds of -- i don't remember the term that you used. but when you look at all of that, this is the time not to pull back. there's still important american interests. you need to engage. the outcome is not decided. there is a battle going on in each one of these countries. and if you don't weigh in diplomatically and economically and militarily if need be, the outcome isn't going to be to your liking, and the worst thing to do is to assume it's all the same, you can't do anything about it and pull back. that is a mistake, and i think panic is the wrong strategy. >> okay. i think those are two strong endorsements for an interest-based approach. i think the challenge in the democratic society, ours as well as on the other side, is whether you can sustain support for such an approach. hisham said love's got nothing to do with it. >> i like to quote -- [laughter] tina turner. >> i love your wife. >> look, i know ti